#syscourse discussion

[benito-flakes]

The regressive nature of sysmedicalism in regard to trauma survivors

Sysmedicalism is usually attributed to being directed towards endogenic systems in particular, but what happens when those beliefs are turned against the groups they wish to protect? Where does the line get drawn between the seemingly noble desire to stop misinformation and the outright witch-hunting of systems online? 

As a system who has relabeled their identity after years of self-discovery, I have engaged with sysmed rhetoric from the side of an endogenic system as well as from that of a traumagenic one. Unfortunately, I continue to find myself negatively impacted by its effects even now. Despite being the very thing that would be recognized affirmatively in the eyes of a sysmed, I worry I still am not good enough. 

This feeling of personal inadequacy is mixed with a sense of fear, a sinking dread of never fitting a diagnostic mold that will validate me in the eyes of my traumagenic peers. I have no reason to feel this way; I have a trauma history beginning in childhood and my therapist has affirmed the existence of both my system and the individual identities within. I have rushed after a CDD diagnosis to assuage my own fears when my treatment without one has yielded positive results regardless. 

Why do I continue to feel this way? A large part of it is how online communities handle system origins. I find that in attempting to protect traumagenic and/or disordered systems, the medicalized plural community has inadvertently left scars on their own members. When encountering the level of vitriol often directed at non-traumagenic, “non-valid” system types it becomes very easy to develop a mindset of fear. 

Sysmed rhetoric is inherently exclusionary. It promotes dichotomies fundamentally designed to separate: 

Individuals as “valid” vs “invalid” Experiences as objective truths vs experiences as subjective realities “Them” vs “us”  The truth, of course, is that individual experiences are widely variable even within a clinical environment. Diagnostic criteria serve as guidelines but cannot hope to fully encompass the range of structures that function within it.

The hyperfocus on these comparisons is of course problematic, but it is especially so in a community full of traumatized individuals. Knowing that you will be turned on for not fitting a mold, feeling a growing anxiety at presenting yourself in an inoffensive manner, never speaking, behaving, or acting out of line. The need to fawn and placate for fear of harassment and abuse is a perpetuation of trauma cycles that many of us have experienced firsthand. More drastic results of sysmedicalism–fake-claiming and targeted harassment–come from a place of pain; a need to exert control over perceived threats real or imaginary. 

We silence because we have been silenced. 

We tell others they are not good enough because we have been made to feel not good enough.

We hurt because we have been hurt. 

It is not my goal to attack or condemn others for feeling their feelings. What is my goal, however, is to invite plurals to approach one another more compassionately. Viewing my therapy process as personalized to my lived experiences has been incredibly healing when engaging with spaces that often push one-sided viewpoints. Trauma healing and mental health treatment is an individual, tailored process, and that is what we traumagenic plurals should be emphasizing. 

[circular-bircular]

Time for a syscourse syscussion-

What benefits has your system had for you? This includes all aspects of systemhood, so not limited to simply the concept of plurality. I particularly want to hear from traumatized systems, but nontraumatized systems can also speak up.

I think there should be more discussion of the positives regarding systems, alongside all the negatives. Often, I felt in pro-endo spaces, that I could only be positive about the plural aspect of my systemhood, as if the traumatic aspects of my life were solely negative. I’ve also felt frequently like this in anti-endo spaces, like enjoying my systemhood was “enjoying” my abuse. Yikes!

I’m curious the responses.

[cherubiccluster]

It confuses me when people who are cool with non-disordered and spiritual otherkin are against the concept of non-disordered or spiritual plurality

I don't get how you can accept the concept of

"I am a fox, this identity is not caused by any mental illness"

or

"I am Sailor Moon, this Identity is not caused by any mental illness"

but somehow the concept of "we are multiple people in one body, this is not caused by any mental illness" is too much for you

[smilepilled]

syscord did serious damage to my perceival of things, discussions, and people's lives/identities. it forced me into condenscendingly correcting and brutally "educating" people who weren't aware of every little thing. it made me a much more abrasive and cold individual on the basis that i should always be correcting everyone on everything at all times and enforcing the same one-size-fits-all mold of "morality" onto them. it made me angry, aggressive, frustrated, isolated, scared, and it was absolutely not worth it.

with this post, i hope to help other people realize how a lot of syscord spaces manage to radicalize people into being aggressive, extremely demeaning and bitter people, by default. this doesn't apply to every system-based discord server, but the big ones where you get dogpiled and then shittalked for anything wrong you do — instead of, you know, being properly talked to like you're a person

it is a terrible place to be in for anyone, let alone people struggling with their mental health. do not force yourselves to stay in syscords for templates or decor, its genuinely not worth it. extremely harsh environment; namely the syscords where its filled with exclusionist 15 year olds who constantly pick at everything and anything to make you problematic. do not stay in these spaces, its not worth it. i promise you there are many resource servers where you won't feel like you're in a killing game with five hundred people at your neck

[light-alexandria]

hello, system community!

i’m trying to find information/hear personal experiences of systemhood from others, if any of you would be so kind as to help me!

particularly, i would like to hear from those who identify as endogenic or otherwise non-trauma formed systems. of course, i would love to hear from trauma-formed systems as well! it’s just that i am one, and so that’s the community i have been most involved with & heard from already.

feel free to DM me anonymously if you don’t want to share publicly. i won’t post anything. my aim is to hear from others so that i can form my own opinions, figure out the right direction to go for independent research, and to simply understand others more.

thank you very much in advance, and i hope you all are having a wonderful day 💙

(please be mindful & respectful with what is said if you reply publicly. i am looking for open discussion, not arguments or hate.)

[litcyaoi]

perhaps a dumb question but;

a lot of people in the syscourse tag agree that littles can do things like drink, smoke, have sex, etc, as long as they're in an adult body, or have opinions similar to that.

however, how do you guys feel about adult presenting alters in minor-bodied systems doing similar things?

i genuinely want to get some insight on this. because most of our frequent fronters and hosts are very much older than our body age, and most of us do things meant for adults (hell, im hitting a vape as i type this 😭😭), but some people have gotten really mad at us for it and such and it's always confused us.

do you guys think it's a similar situation? where adults in minor-bodied systems aren't actually adults or is it different?

[syscultureis]

Hi I have a question, would it be valid to be willogenic as a way to cope with trauma? At first it was my way to cope with my past trauma, loneliness, and stressful things I face. Never was trying to be a system (kinda), uhh I forgotten what else I was gonna say.. but I think If not Vaild I'll complete stop and find a better coping mechanism. But I want to hear from people who have DID/OSDD , since it's a trauma focused disorder. Also maybe there are smiler stuff to this? I'M NOT TRYING TO WASTE YOUR TIME I JUST WANT TO NOW IF WHAT I'M DOING IS OKAY OR NOT 😭

So fun fact actually, when we were young we noticed our symptoms, we assumed we had "personas" for specific things, so sometimes we would make new ones that we would pretend to be when we needed to be, and a lot of those personas became alters, not all of them but a noticeable amount

This is actually a lot closer to having introjects of an OC than actually creating an alter and a system, because while I may have made "Chad to deal with bullies" our brain saw an already prepared person to take care of the stressor and need, and because the situations were causing stress they were causing splits, those splits had an identity premade for them to latch onto, we were never making the alters themselves though

Willogenic isn't a real thing, it's not something you can actually be, but because of how it's described I have seen a lot of systems who went through what we did assume they were willogenic

In general if you just want to "make" alters and say you're a system to cope with traumas, go for it I can't stop you and if it helps it helps, but that's just imaginary friends and it more likely to cause you worse dissociation and identity confusion if you're not careful

I would heavily advise looking into DID with a professional though, because what you're saying is something I've heard a lot of ppl say they felt (some of my own sys included) the way you're describing before discovering they are a system.

I would also look into BPD and disorders that can cause minor or start with minor psychosis as well, they're things that can cause symptoms similar to DID

You're not doing anything wrong, you're coping in a way that works for you and I'm glad you found something that works for now, but I again advise trying to look into things with a professional (and maybe on your own as well) because if you don't have DID, coping like that long term can cause more harm than good, and working with a professional and looking into disorders that cause your symptoms can help you find better ways to cope as well

[traumagenic-positivity]

i wanted to make it clear for anyone who sees this blog and wishes to harass us!

�� we are strictly anti endo. however, that does not mean we will hunt you down or send you death threats. we dislike that in general, as we've had bad experiences with that. and we do not think most people deserve death threats all around.

• most plural spaces here are pro endogenic. this is a rare space that isn't, and I will keep it that way.

• if we do come off as rude or anything in a response, you've most likely hit a nerve, or we're thinking about the people who follow us who have been full on HARASSED by other endos. yes, this is a space for us! but it's much more of a space for the others in this community.

please refrain from commenting, reblogging, or @-ing us in a hateful response to this. acknowledge it if you'd like, and please try to keep this positive.

no, I do not personally like everyone, but I do hope you all stay safe. have a nice day, please.

[activewildcard]

sighs dramatically and grips your shoulders.

once again asking you guys to stop comparing (pro) endos to radqueers. they are not the same. one is built upon ideology that specifically is made to groom people and one is just some people who think the brain is a little complicated sometimes.

they are not the same and never will be. yes, radqueer includes being pro-endo but that does not mean pro-endo = radqueer.

[neiviele]

The wildest thing about headspace discourse is that you're basically arguing about whether people can have concepts appear in their head unprovoked (they can) whether children can think (they can) whether people can have strong emotions over imagined situations (they can) and whether these situations can be recalled enough to give a cohesive narrative (they can).

[ratinacoat]

how do you feel about the concept of a "median" - someone in the space between full DID/OSDD and every day dissociation (highway hypnosis)? the way i see it is that it's kinda like the idea of a boundary between normality, maybe? like subclinical DID/OSDD. i'm not too sure about it though

I'm clarifying this before starting bc I know people have their own definitions for the word and I'm using my specific one for this. When using the word "system" here, it is as a way to describe having multiple distinct dissociated parts (DID) or having multiple distinct parts with less amnesia/amnesia with less distinct parts (OSDD-1) This will also be a long post bc I needed to go into detail about why I don't think this is being a system but I put a TL;DR at the bottom as always!

Anyway. there is a space between highway dissociation and DID/OSDD-1. It's a very wide space actually, it's the dissociative spectrum. This kind of shows how that looks.

There's a large space in between every day dissociation and DID. The theory of structural dissociation helps explain the distinction between them all.

People with PTSD have something called an emotional part (EP) along side an apparently normal part (ANP). The EP helps keep the trauma from constantly affecting the person and the ANP is a more grounded state that helps the person continue in their every day life. The more complex the disorder gets, the more complex this gets. Someone with C-PTSD, BPD, and OSDD (not just OSDD-1) will have multiple EPs and one ANP. Someone with DID will have multiple ANPs as well as multiple EPs. The parts in the case of DID will be more distinct, and in OSDD-1 they will either be less distinct with amnesia or have a lack of amnesia but more distinction.

I can't find the pic I usually use to simplify this so I drew it. Excuse my handwriting.

Because of how DID is multiple ANPs but none of the others are, there's no real way to be in between this and still have distinct parts (alters) other than OSDD-1, which you said is also included on the explanation of a "median". However, you can be in between in general. You just can't have alters. BPD, OSDD-2/3/4, C-PTSD, and other disorders that fall on the spectrum can cause identity confusion which might be confused as alters, but the distinction between the dissociated parts is what makes DID and OSDD so different along side just generally different symptoms. A DD in between highway dissociation and DID in a way that's comparable by experience, has distinction between parts, more than one ANP, amnesia between parts, and generally fits the criteria for DID is just DID. If it's missing distinction or amnesia it's just OSDD-1. If it doesn't fit this criteria or it's just identity confusion + dissociation, it's not DID or OSDD-1 and it's another issue.

I don't know if medians are considered endogenic or under that umbrella, but if it is that just wouldn't be possible. Without having the trauma that causes the dissociation to become maladaptive and more severe/complex, you couldn't be in between highway dissociation and DID in a way that would make you able to compare the two in experience unless you're really reaching. DID is far more than feeling like a different person sometimes, wanting to go by different names, gender/prns/sexuality changing, etc. Hell I got asked if I experienced that stuff when getting assessed for autism. A non-trauma caused issue will not be so similar to DID that it falls between DID and highway dissociation.

TL;DR To sum it up, I can understand how someone self reporting could mistake something else for DID/OSDD-1 but I don't think this qualifies as being a system because of the lack of distinction and amnesia that makes DID/OSDD-1 what it is. There's no way to be in between multiple ANPs and EPs without just fitting under a different DD that doesn't make someone a system or OSDD-1 which you stated is included in being "in between".

Also, If you believe yourself to be a median system please do not brush it off just bc that description is not recognized by professionals. If you are experiencing the symptoms of a dissociative, trauma, or personality disorder in such a severe way that it's comparable to DID, there is an actual issue that needs to be addressed even if it's not the answer you thought it was. Getting help and healing from your trauma is more important than being right. If you were wrong about being a system that's okay, if the friends you made from it are truly your friends they will understand and support your pathway to recovery.

[lemonxlimee]

DID is not a trauma disorder. Nor is it a plurality disorder (those don't exist).

It's a dissociative disorder. It's commonly associated with trauma but you don't need trauma to have it. Just like you don't need trauma to have any other dissociative disorder.

[litcyaoi]

shout-out to people who did actually have delusions about having DID/OSDD or who mistook their delusions/hallucinations for a CDD. u guys are cool

[wondercourse]

"guys i've disproven endogenic plurality once and for all!" and it's another post that either relies on defining endogenic plurality as having anything to do with CDDs when they made a whole full separate term for "this is not CDD-related" or touts the fantasy model of "DID is not real" as meaning anything other than "DID is not real". or potentially both.

ik i've talked about this before bc syscourse is a flat circle but like. dude come on please. your proof that DID is trauma-based (true) is not proof that endogenic plurality doesn't exist. it's proof DID is trauma-based. those are two different things.

it's saying apples don't exist because grapes grow on vines, not trees, idiot, how could you ever think grapes grow on anything but vines you stupid moron? you think grapes grow on trees?? and then you get people going "holy shit people think grapes grow on trees?? stupid idiots". and obviously it's different because fruits aren't trauma-based dissociative disorders and non-CDD plurality so of course when people are met with this idea that their disorder is being mocked they get upset. i've been there! i was anti-endo for like six years! i hated endogenic systems because i felt mocked by them! but endogenic plurality is a whole different thing from CDDs and that's the whole reason a separate term was coined for it.

anyway idk i'm sorry if this comes off as mean or anything or if it doesn't make sense but man i am so tired dude. if you're gonna not believe in endogenic plurality, can you at least not believe in it in a way that doesn't conflate it with CDDs, please.

[system-of-a-feather]

You know, I understand it is largely part of the nature of it, but I feel mental health communities and people in general don't really talk about the struggles of people with heavy avoidant attachment. Cause honestly, yes by nature of C-PTSD and DID, yes we technically have disorganized attachment and yes, it does fit us, but we identify as a very very VERY heavy avoidant attachment individual an, while I'm not trying to compare cause its different and not a competition, but I do wish there was more of a general understanding for avoidant attachment, how it presents and how to help people with heavy avoidant attachment tendencies feel safe and heal like I see for those with heavy anxious / ambivalent attachment folks.

Like I really wish we had more people talking about it, but like, as someone who theoretically could, I don't even know what Id say and if I did, I don't know if I would say it because #AvoidantAttachment

It's frustrating and if anyone has any input or even any topic points theyre welcome to share but man. All our trauma shit and roadblocks always circle back to this man

Why weren't my parents a little more inconsistently absent and abusive so I could at least be more balanced in my disorganized attachment and sometimes relate to people who have non-avoidant dominant attachment GOD woe is me (JOKING AND BEING MELODRAMATIC)

[kindnessoverperfection]

I think a lot of discourse boils down to the idea that there's One Right Answer for everything. But the world, and individual people, are far too complex for that.

For example, a very common pattern of conflict I see is this-

"[blank] was very harmful to me, and set me back a lot." "But [blank] was what finally helped me understand and work through everything."

And instead of approaching the subject with curiosity and compassion, it becomes a fight over which is "correct".

A much more helpful conversation is, "How can we provide fuller information to help people figure out what's best for them?"